В Центре городской культуры прошла лекция о том, как использовать решение Верховного суда об отмене тарифов Пермской сетевой компании за 2017-2018 годы и вернуть переплату за отопление. Об этом рассказывал председатель правления ассоциации ТСЖ «Пермский стандарт» Александр Зотин.

— Разберёмся с терминами. За коммунальные услуги жители города платят либо по установленным тарифам, либо по нормативам.

Тариф — это цена за единицу какого-то коммунального ресурса. Например, стоимость кубометра воды, стоимость гигакалории тепла, квт/ч электроэнергии и т. д.

Норматив — это заранее установленная сумма, которую на законодательном уровне решили брать с дома, который не имеет, например, общедомового счетчика электроэнергии.

Кто устанавливает тарифы?

— ПСК (Пермская сетевая компания) является поставщиком теплоэнергии. По сути она нагревает воду в кранах и в трубах. Для того чтобы собирать за это деньги с населения, ПСК рассчитывает тариф и предоставляет его в Региональную тарифную службу (РСТ). Это специальные чиновники, подчиняющиеся губернатору Пермского края.

РСТ рассматривает экономическую обоснованность тарифов, то есть цену, которая потом будет выставляться людям. РСТ должна внимательно изучить заявку ПСК и скорректировать её по необходимости. Но это теория. На практике всё по-другому.

Так как ПСК монополист, то она не думает о снижении цены из-за конкуренции, наоборот. Обосновывая тариф, ПСК включает в него кучу своих самых разных расходов. Часто не подтверждённых никакими документами. РСТ всё утверждает автоматически.

Надо заметить, что, по-видимому, РСТ вообще не собирается на свои заседания. Когда мы судились по тарифам ПСК зимой-весной этого года, выяснилось, что не существует ни одного подписанного протокола заседаний РСТ. В неподписанном «протоколе» значится, что за 4 часа рассмотрено 200 вопросов по обоснованности тарифов. Вы в можете поверить в такую скорость? Но суд не принял наши доводы.

Суды, ПСК и арифметики из РСТ

— Наша судебная победа произошла в условиях сверхлояльного отношения судов к ПСК. Но суд вынужден выносить решения в нашу пользу, поскольку нарушения настолько фундаментальные, что судье деваться некуда. В этот раз нам удалось доказать, что РСТ утвердило тариф ПСК, в котором не были подкреплены документами расходы на сумму в 74 миллиона рублей.

Позже РСТ распространила пресс-релиз, в котором говорится, что 74 млн — это копейки, в сущности. Если разделить на всех жителей, получится переплата — 17 рублей на каждого пермяка. Я не знаю, кто учил РСТ арифметике, но по нашему законодательству «отопительные» деньги собираются не с людей, а с квадратных метров. Поэтому вы должны понять, что это цифра, на которую будет перерасчет с квадратного метра, а не с человека. С человека отопление не меряют. Это для понимания уровня наших чиновников. Они какую-то цифру бросили в прессу, ее перепечатали.

Это уже не первая отмена тарифов. Тарифы ПСК отменялись в 2009, 2010, 2011 и в первой половине 2012 года. Очень немногие потребители обратились в суд за возмещением. Максимальную выгоду получили жители ТСЖ «Покровские Ворота», это Ленина, 87. Они отсудили 1,3 млн рублей. За относительно небольшой дом, около 7 тыс кв. метров. За 4 года переплата составила 1,3 млн. Это к слову о 17 рублях…

Интересно, а что же предпринимает государство, которое тоже платило свои деньги в ПСК? За отопление в школах, садиках, административных зданиях? Недавно мои коллеги из журнала «Председатели ТСЖ» задали вопрос прокуратуре Пермского края, вернулись ли в бюджет деньги за отопление таких зданий? Нет, прокуратуре это неинтересно. Ни районным, ни краевой. А деньги-то не маленькие. Если один дом вернул себе 1,3 млн рублей, то сколько можно получить за все дома? Давайте посчитаем. ПСК у нас в Перми обслуживает 60 % всех домов. Всего в Перми около 6 000 домов. Значит, у ПСК — 4 000. А еще социальные объекты, не являющиеся жилыми домами. Получаются очень большие суммы. И все они ушли в оффшор.

Фото:Михаил Яковлев

«Мы только заплатку поставим. У нас такая политика»

— Нас часто упрекают в том, что мы пытаемся уменьшить тарифы, а у ПСК так мало денег, что им не на что чинить сети. Трубы порвутся, люди замерзнут. Вот в Ижевске никто не борется с аналогом ПСК, Удмуртскими коммунальными системами. Там абсолютно та же схема: есть базовая компания Вексельберга и есть компания-прокладка, через которую торгуют теплом. И это не помешало Ижевску прийти в состояние коммунального коллапса: в прошлую и в позапрошлую зиму там было объявлено чрезвычайное положение. Потому что сети начали просто рваться, а местные сетевики не могут ничего сделать.

У меня около дома этой осенью ПСК меняла свои трубы. Это был, конечно, цирк с конями. Если в трубе образовалась дырка, то по-хорошему, надо эту трубу заменить. Правильно? Это их зона ответственности. Я предложил заменить все 9 метров трубы от стены до тепловой камеры, чтобы лишний раз не копать. В ответ на меня смотрят со священным ужасом и говорят: «Вы что, у нас нет на складе столько труб. Нам не дают столько. Мы только заплатку поставим на эту дырку, и всё. У нас такая политика».

Кстати сказать, несмотря на гарантийные обязательства, участок земли во дворе после раскопок до сих пор не отремонтировали. Крайний срок гарантийных обязательств был 1 октября этого года. Это к вопросу о том, что и кому гарантирует ПСК. Это контора, у которой ничего нет, кроме некоторого количества дырявых сетей. И которая вот этот сверхнормативный, огромный тариф высасывает у населения, но не вкладывает в сети.

Что даёт отмена тарифа?

— Итак, на данный момент тариф отменен. Что это дает нам практически? Выводы следующие: тариф отменен с первого октября 2017 года по настоящий момент. РСТ по идее должна всё пересчитать и утвердить замещающий тариф за этот период, но пока у нас есть только их пресс-релиз, в котором они грозятся издать этот тариф, сохранив его на предыдущем уровне. Мы, конечно, не позволим этого сделать. Если тариф останется на прежнем уровне, мы оспорим и это постановление. Тем более, основания для этого есть. Но тарифы не утверждаются задним числом. Таким образом, пространство между 1 октября 2017 года и какой-то датой, когда будет утвержден замещающий тариф, если он вообще будет когда-нибудь утверждён, остаётся нерегулируемым. По этому периоду может возникнуть судебный спор.

Давайте рассмотрим несколько разных ситуаций. Вы все живёте в разных условиях. Во-первых, у вас в доме поставщиком тепла может быть не ПСК. Такое возможно. Существуют сотни домов в Перми, которые вообще от ПСК, как от прокладки, избавились, они сумели заключить прямые договоры с материнской компанией. Тарифы Т-плюс — это тарифы материнской компании, и они существенно ниже. Примерно на 40 %. Понятно, что материнская компания ногами, руками и всеми остальными конечностями отбивалась. Но такие дома есть, в частности дом, в котором живу я. И это судебное решение таких домов не касается. Тарифы Т-плюс не оспорены, по ним придется платить и никуда тут не денешься. Но они ниже.

Есть более мелкие теплоснабжающие компании по окраинам Перми, и их тарифы не отменены. Поэтому надо понимать, что не все тарифы отменены. Только те, которые связаны с ПСК. Поэтому, получая квитанцию, вам надо проверить, от кого эта квитанция. Трудность заключается в том, что квитанция может приходить вам через вашу управляющую организацию, через ТСЖ или Управляющую компанию, и такие случаи до сих пор есть. А могут быть так называемые прямые договоры и прямые платежи, когда приходят отдельные квитанции за тепло, горячую воду и т. д. Отдельные квитанции — это и хорошо, и плохо. Объясню почему. Это хорошо потому, что вы можете индивидуально выстраивать отношения с этой ресурсоснабжающей организацией. А плохо потому, что вы не можете коллективно защитить права. Только каждый сам за себя.

Здесь не получается никакого синергетического эффекта. Логика простая: вы идете возвращать условные 2 000 рублей за год. Ну что такое 2 000? Там судебных процессов на 4 месяца. Кто то подумает: «Я лучше 2 000 так заработаю». И этим поставщик будет пользоваться, тем, что захотят вернуть деньги очень немногие. Что в этой ситуации нужно делать? Нужно уполномочить вашу управляющую организацию на возврат необоснованного обогащения в пользу собственников. Эти деньги не будут в собственности УК или ТСЖ, они будут возвращены собственникам. Почему это важно? Потому, что проще коллективно судиться, т. к. будет один судебный процент на 500 квартир. Вам нужно решение собрания собственников, нужно договориться с УК. Это в ваших интересах. Максимальная выгода будет для ТСЖ, где построены хорошие отношения между руководством и собственниками. Вот ТСЖ «Покровские ворота» пошли и отсудили. И этот случай не единичный. Но индивидуальные иски малоперспективны. Просто потому, что затраты на эти исковые производства несоизмеримы с теми деньгами, которые можно вернуть. А вот коллективные иски будут действенными.

Ситуация, когда счета вам выставляет ТСЖ или УК, интереснее, никаких решений собраний там не нужно. Управляющая организация платила эти деньги и может их вернуть, но тоже не может присвоить их себе, а может только направить собственникам.

И важно. Мы говорим сейчас о тарифе на тепло, а не за горячую воду. Я хорошо понимаю, что в горячей воде большинство стоимости — тариф ПСК. Но мы ведем речь только об отоплении и только там, где поставкой его занимается ПСК. Ну, или делает вид, что занимается.

Фото:Константин Долгановский

Сколько требовать?

— Во-первых, я считаю, что выгоднее быть ответчиком, чем истцом. Объясню на простом примере. Предположим, вы исправно платили по тарифу. Сейчас вы обращаетесь в ПСК. Представим себе фантастическую ситуацию, что вас там приняли и выслушали. А потом спрашивают, сколько вы переплатили? И тут вы впадаете в ступор — вы не знаете цифру. И вам просто скажут — когда узнаете, тогда и приходите.

Обратная сторона — представим, что вы не заплатили за какой-то месяц в ПСК. Они к вам приходят и говорят, что вы должны заплатить деньги. Вы им мило улыбаетесь и спрашиваете — а сколько я вам должен заплатить? И они точно так же не знают, сколько вы им должны. И вы им говорите — когда узнаете, тогда и приходите. Ответчиком быть лучше, чем истцом.

Тем не менее, ТСЖ «Покровские Ворота» предложили технологию расчёта этой суммы, если вы все-таки решили стать истцом. Вы же добросовестные граждане, вы же не знали, что это мошенническая компания, вы всегда платили. Что в этом случае требовать? «Покровские Ворота» свою исковую практику построили следующим образом. Они сказали так: ПСК получает энергию из Т-плюс, тарифы Т-плюс не оспариваем. А всё что сверху — доказывайте. И ПСК в этой ситуации в суде пытается доказать, что они тоже работали, что им нужно платить за электроэнергию, зарплату слесарю и т. д. И все эти расходы у неё включены в тариф. А по экспертизе получается, что расходы на ПСК увеличивают тариф где-то на 10 %, где-то на 12 %. Но не на 40 %.

Таким образом, при обращении в суд желательно сразу же подобрать кандидатуру эксперта или экспертной организации, которые смогут это всё посчитать. Стоимость экспертизы — от 20 до 70 тыс. рублей. Такую сумму не имеет смысла платить, если вы выдвигаете индивидуальный иск, другое дело, если иск выдвигает целый дом.

Как платить сейчас?

— Вы все в ближайшее время получите квитанции за тепло. Но до принятия замещающего тарифа никаких квитанций выставлять просто нельзя. Потому что непонятно, какую цифру выставлять. РСТ, возможно, примет замещающий тариф, возможно, он даже будет численно равен тому, который отменен. Они об этом уже проговорились. В этой ситуации, даже когда появится замещающий тариф, не торопитесь платить по нему. Потому что мы рассмотрим этот тариф, рассмотрим основания и, возможно, будем оспаривать и этот тариф, как экономически необоснованный. Соответственно, вы должны быть готовы и вам будет выгодней и приятней быть ответчиком, а не истцом. Но в этом случае, не тратьте деньги, которые вы направляете на оплату за тепло. Ведь, например, через 3 месяца вы можете столкнуться с необходимостью всё-таки заплатить, а денег уже нет и в ближайшее время не предвидится.

Поэтому, если вы видите спорную ситуацию, вы отложите эти деньги. Это очень просто сделать. Пришла вам квитанция с липовыми тарифами — а я уверен, что ПСК вам, не дожидаясь никакого замещающего тарифа, никаких решений РСТ, просто вышлет по старым тарифам — вы возьмите и заплатите сами себе. Оставьте их на карточке или на депозите. Именно в этом самом размере. И заморозьте эту ситуацию. Выйдет замещающий тариф — будем анализировать. Ещё раз для понимания. Пока тарифа нет, но квитанции будут лежать в ваших почтовых ящиках через несколько дней. Не дайте себя обмануть.

Вопросы из зала

— Вот мы перестанем платить, и сколько это продлится? Год, два, три?

— Нет. Объясняю ещё раз. Мы отменили тариф за период с 1 октября 2017 года по настоящий момент. По момент, когда РСТ утвердит замещающий тариф за этот период. А с 1 января 2019 года будет принципиально новый тариф, и этот тариф будет не замещающий, а очередной, и РСТ его обязательно назначит. Я вас должен огорчить — он точно подрастет. Почему? Потому что у нас увеличился НДС. А НДС «сидит» в каждом тарифе. Если я не ошибаюсь, на 2,4 % точно будет рост. А дальше — хотите оспаривайте, хотите — нет, но пока он не оспорен, вы должны его платить. Поэтому пока речь идет только о платежах до декабря 2018 года включительно.

— Хотелось бы узнать процедуру, чтобы подключиться напрямую к Т-плюс, без прокладки в виде ПСК.

— Вопрос правильный — зачем мы судимся, боремся, возвращаем… Нет ПСК — нет проблем. Это правильный подход, но, к сожалению, чтобы всё изложить, я должен провести ещё одну лекцию на 3.5 часа. Очень много вводных, и ситуация меняется каждый год. Впервые мы на ПСК напоролись в 2008 году, когда сильно выросли цены. Компания Вексельберга создала дочернюю структуру, чтобы продавать ресурсы с наценкой 40 %. Антимонопольная служба это запретила, но ни ПСК, ни Вексельберг не обратили на это внимания. Запретила и запретила, наплевать. И продолжали выставлять счета. Соответственно, дальше некоторые УК и ТСЖ боролись с этим, а некоторые — нет. Те, которые боролись, те в большинстве своем добились прямого подключения материнской компании. Это была сложная процедура. Они прошли антимонопольный процесс, затем — арбитражный. Это заняло четыре года. Письмами из ПСК, в которых меня и посадить угрожали, я уже могу обклеивать стены, вместо обоев. Если есть доля хладнокровия, от этого можно абстрагироваться. Но не все могут это сделать, особенно если вокруг вас вьется прокуратура. Те же «Покровские Ворота» до сих пор проверяет прокуратура Дзержинского района.

— В Закамске можно уменьшить тарифы на отопление?

— Отличный вопрос. Что касается Закамска — он лежит вне ПСК. Там тарифы от Т-плюс. Но подождите радоваться. Для закамского теплового узла установлен отдельный тариф, численно равный чему? Тарифу ПСК.

Что сделали мы? Во-первых, мы оспорили тарифы по Кировскому району за 2015 год, но самое главное — в августе закончилось разбирательство, и схема была признана пермским отделением УФАС незаконной. Было выдано предписание убрать эту схему. Но это предписание будет ещё год обжаловаться в судах, поэтому Закамску в этой ситуации нужно оспаривать актуальный тариф Т-плюс, но конкретно для Закамского теплового узла. Мы готовы оказать необходимую помощь, но для этого нужны люди, готовые этим заниматься. У нас стоимость оспаривания тарифов ПСК получилась около 400 тысяч рублей. Поэтому здесь нужно кооперироваться, в Закамске 190 ТСЖ.

Источник — http://zvzda.ru/articles/6828f3f4f8a5

Суд отменил тарифы на тепло: что это значит и как вернуть переплаченные деньги. Рассказывает Александр Зотин

Суд отменил тарифы на тепло: что это значит и как вернуть переплаченные деньги. Рассказывает Александр Зотин: 214 комментариев

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